The refugees who will arrive in Estonia in the coming years should find work and schools for their children as soon as possible, says Chancellor of Justice Ülle Madise. They will not be enjoying any preferential treatment in comparison to local people and they will have to follow our laws and rules whilst here in Estonia.
What do you think of the refugee debate in Estonia?
I feel sorry for everyone down on their luck, whether they are in Estonia or elsewhere. Of course, it is necessary to make the distinction between genuine refugees and people who are adventurers or criminals. Estonia must clearly make this distinction.
The people who are fleeing battles or the so-called Islamic State really need help. The brutality they are facing is inconceivable. I believe that we would all be forced to abandon our homes if we were in a situation like this.
If a person has an identity document (although sometimes it is understandable why they do not), if their past is clean, then it is humane to help them as much as possible. The people who really need help are those who are killed and persecuted because they are Christians or moderate Muslims who are not prepared to become extremists, but just want to live their lives like we all do.
Of course, these people should get work here, and their children should get an education. It will be difficult, as they do not speak the language when they get here. But Estonia can help them, just like all other countries.
Estonia has an annual immigration quota for citizens of third countries. This quota is much higher than the number of people who actually come to Estonia in a year.
Are refugees included in this quota?
I do not think so. But there are hundreds of people who come to Estonia from other European Union Member States and states whose citizens can settle in Estonia outside the quota and without difficult procedures. They come here to work and study, and are a benefit to our society. There is certainly no truth in the claims that helping refugees will change the look or even the public order of Estonia.
I understand people’s fears and prejudices. I feel sorry for the people whose homes and future have been destroyed or under great threat, but I also understand the people in Estonia who worry about the development of our country.
One thing is very clear: the refugees who might come to Estonia in the next two years will have to follow Estonian laws. They may not have a criminal past, they may not commit crimes in Estonia. Everything they do in Estonia must comply with our Constitution, laws and rules of public order. There is no basis to demand amendment of these rules.
What happens if some local authorities do not want to accept refugees?
If that is the case, so be it. However, many municipalities have houses that nobody lives in. If these houses can be used to accommodate some nice families, the children can be sent to school and parents to work, they use services in the municipality, then this could help the municipality to develop. The money they will receive for accommodating refugees should be sufficient to renovate these houses.
Hopefully these people won’t be needing asylum for long. However, some of our compatriots needed it for half a century.
The number of people living in the Vao Accommodation Centre for Asylum Seekers is twice as high as it should be – does this constitute a violation of their rights?
It cannot be generalized. The Chancellor of Justice inspects whether the conditions in these centres comply with Estonian laws and human dignity.
Are the people who are coming to Estonia asylum seekers or refugees?
The final decision has not been made yet, but the stance at the moment is that Estonian officials will do what is necessary before these people get here. However, if refugee status is granted here, these people must be accommodated in Estonia until the decision is made. Preferably, the people who come here should immediately find work and schools for their children.
It has also been said that the conditions created for refugees are better than those of working Estonian people or people who have unfortunately lost their work or health. That is obviously not true. They will not be getting any preferential treatment. There is the subsistence benefit that is available in Estonia, and they will of course be offered language training.
Can Estonia send a refugee back if they commit a crime here?
Yes, that is possible according to the convention and the laws of Estonia.
Is it freedom of speech or should the authorities intervene if someone writes in public space that “I’d like to bomb those refugees” or “they need a kick in the face”?
I am a confirmed democrat and in favour of freedom of opinion. Discussion does more good than bad in the case of refugees as well.
However, I would not have the heart to say something like this about people who have lost their homes, health, loved ones.
Estonia guarantees the loans of Greece to creditors in the amount of hundreds of millions of euros. Greece is now bankrupt. How can Estonia protect its interests?
There are two main creditors.
The private legal entity the EFSF in Luxembourg has lent money to Greece. In very simple terms, Estonia is one of the sureties of the loan. It is not clear whether Estonia will receive a claim from this creditor. Experts think that a claim is rather unlikely, because the system is too well bolstered, so it should not happen, but you cannot be absolutely sure about anything.
The second is the European Stability Mechanism or ESM, which led to a dispute in Estonia that went all the way to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court found that the Constitution allows the Riigikogu to make the ESM treaty binding for Estonia.
Nothing has been given to Greece from this mechanism yet. It is an issue for the Riigikogu and broader public discussion if someone wants to use the ESM to help Greece. At the moment, it’s quite easy to predict where this discussion would lead.
In your opinion, there is no reason to panic that Estonia will immediately have to come up with money?
No, there is not.
Minister of Justice Urmas Reinsalu said to Postimees in April: “As the Minister of Justice, I am not planning any additional legal furnishing of the Registered Partnership Act”. The act should enter into force at the beginning of next year, but there are no implementing provisions. Should they come from the Government, or are there other options?
Riigikogu members, fractions and committees also have the right to initiate draft acts.
How do you assess a situation where an act has been adopted, no matter what people think of it, but the Government is not dealing with its implementation?
I like clear and honest solutions and I do not think it is good that an act has been adopted, but cannot be complied with. Either comply with an act or do not have it at all.
Is it possible that people will not be able to register their partnerships from the start of next year despite the existence of the Registered Partnerships Act?
Yes, because the enforcement of an act is related to implementing provisions, which do not exist yet. Some people have been very angry about the act, others have been happy about it, but we now see that it has all been in vain.
What is the solution?
I believe that we should discuss this topic in society until everything has been considered and to make a clear – and hopefully humane – decision.
The Chancellor of Justice is now also responsible for supervising security authorities. Many states have been criticised for blanket surveillance of society. Does blanket surveillance exist in Estonia as well?
Not as far as I know, but we keep checking all the time. Any unlawful surveillance is prohibited and punishable in Estonia. Wire-tapping, concealed surveillance and reading e-mail messages is permitted only if there is a good reason for doing so and it is done by the authority that has the right to do it.
The threats in the world have changed. I cannot say whether they are bigger or more grave than before. It seems to me that every era has to bear a burden that is no heavier than it can handle. But it is a fact that when dangerous crimes are usually planned on the Internet, the state must have the capacity to fight these criminals.
The other side of the coin is that a state governed by the rule of law has to guarantee that nobody can abuse their authority. This is where the Chancellor of Justice steps in – as an independent constitutional institution, the Chancellor inspects the authorities that do this kind of work in Estonia.
We have very competent people who have the necessary knowledge and experience. I am hoping that we will get the first results in autumn. We are planning to check how wire-tapping is carried out, whether the control system that should make abuse impossible is strong enough and so on.
Will your opinions in these matters be public?
Everything that can be done publicly is done publicly. State secrets are state secrets. Transparency and openness are one of our principles. We conceal some data where necessary and make the rest public.
Is all Internet traffic in Estonia recorded somewhere and investigated?
The law does not permit this and there is no capacity to do it, either.
What concerns do people have who contact the Chancellor of Justice? Is there something you can say in general?
People are our priority: children, young people, women, men, entrepreneurs, pensioners. We can check that the rights and freedoms of people are not excessively restricted. The other side is that we check whether laws are complied with and whether the rights of people are guaranteed.
Since I assumed office on 31 March, I have tried to go through all of the mail we receive. There is everything from cases of constitutional review where the Supreme Court requests our opinion to people complaining about an apartment association that does not let them feed hungry cats. Or people have fallen out with payday lenders.
Unfortunately, we cannot help everyone, as the duty of the Chancellor of Justice is to check whether laws and other act comply with the Constitution and whether state and local authorities consider people’s rights.
A common situation is where an apartment association decides to renovate, but a person says that they do not have the money to contribute to it. The person’s concerns are understandable, but so is the position of the other members of the association that the roof has to be fixed to ensure that no one’s property is destroyed. We can say that the law says this or that, it is constitutional and the Riigikogu decided to divide interests like this, but your option is to negotiate with the association.
There are also some really strange cases. For example, there is an act that orders the owner of a water mill under heritage protection to build a passage for fish, but another one prohibits this, as it would damage the protected mill. The owner is in a situation where it is impossible for him to perform the obligations assigned to him by the state.
There are also cases where an authority does not even try to be there for people. For example, there was a person who submitted a request for the extension of a permit on the last day on which the previous permit was effective, but their request was registered three days later and the person suffered.
What are the main problems of the Estonian education system?
From the viewpoint of the Constitution, the Estonian education system does need some streamlining and some serious efforts to do so are already being made. Do we have a comprehensive school or is our comprehensive school not working? This deserves public discussion. Who is responsible, the state or municipalities and cities?
In Estonia, good basic education should be guaranteed free of charge for every child who is of school age. In practice, there has been a lot of confusion. The opinion is that keeping a school going is still primarily the task of local governments. However, the circle of local life issues is changing over time. I am not going to offer an opinion on whether urbanisation and people leaving rural areas is good or bad, but it must be taken into account. The state should assume clear responsibility for the school network being optimal, teachers being well paid and respected, and children getting the kind of education that enables them to develop into the best versions of themselves.
There are municipal private schools where education is provided via a foundation or undertaking established by the local government. Partly using taxpayers’ money, but also using the fees parents are charged.
Then there are private schools which are paid operational support or building maintenance support in addition to the capitation fee – which is here to stay – on the basis of a decision made in 2010 without any thorough consideration or analysis of consequences. The argument back then was that the tuition fee would decrease and studying in private schools would become accessible to more children. This has not happened.
Then there are municipal schools without tuition fees, but in order to offer children a good education and find enough teachers, they invent certain schemes and parents have to pay.
This week the Chancellor of Justice published the opinion that the owner of school or the local government has to pay for the subjects in the mandatory curriculum. A situation where the soup cooked on one side of the pot is better than on the other is incompatible with the idea of the Constitution.
This does not mean that the quality of education should drop or excellent schools should disappear. Absolutely not! The issue is how to increase everyone’s quality and reach a situation where scheming is not necessary. Good education should be guaranteed for every child free of charge and parents should not have to pay for it.
What about education in Russian?
The report of the Council of Europe about Estonia should be published in the coming months, and based on what I know about its content, Estonia’s attempt to make the results achieved by students in Russian schools as good as those in other schools is the right thing to do.
However, is it right to start using Estonian as the language of instruction in upper secondary school, even to the extent of 60 per cent, or should it be done earlier to develop the child’s abilities in the best possible manner and give them the strongest possible platform for achieving success in life?
I like logical, clean and humane solutions.
What are they?
According to the European tradition, education in the state language starts at nursery school. This does not preclude the existence of special ethnic schools as private schools, cultural clubs or any other ways of keeping one’s national heritage alive. However, successful language instruction generally starts at nursery schools.
Is it necessary to amend the Constitution of Estonia?
The Constitution of Estonia has stood the test of time very well. I see the Constitution as an agreement about the objectives and main functioning principles of Estonia which was established by popular vote.
If there is anything wrong with the Constitution, then it is that there are a few provisions too many. For example, we no longer have city courts, only county courts, but they are still in the Constitution. Also, nobody uses a telegraph anymore. These provisions are redundant, but would it be reasonable to start annulling them by popular vote or to amend the Constitution in the Riigikogu? Hardly. The Constitution is too important for that.
Asked by Argo Ideon
July 2, 2015
The interview is available in Estonian at website of the newspaper Postimees.